Crashing Carthage

This story starts out very slowly and then snowballs into something much, much bigger.

The best place to start is the Guadalquivir river.

The Guadalquivir river is named after the “great valley” it flows through.

This seems back-to front.

I’m used to valleys taking their names from the rivers e.g. Hudson Valley, Thames Valley.

Another curiosity is that this “great valley” name comes from the Arabic.

The Guadalquivir river is the only great navigable river in Spain.

The modern name of Guadalquivir comes from the Arabic al-wādi al-kabīr, ‘great valley’.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guadalquivir

I had assumed that after The Reconquista the Spanish would have changed the name of the Guadalquivir river back to it’s original Spanish name.

The Reconquista is the period of history of the Iberian Peninsula spanning approximately 780 years between the Islamic conquest of Hispania in 711 and the fall of the last Islamic state in Iberia at Granada to the expanding Christian kingdoms in 1492.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconquista

The Umayyad conquest of Hispania was the initial expansion of the Umayyad Caliphate over Hispania, largely extending from 711 to 788.

Precisely what happened in Iberia in the early 8th century is uncertain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayyad_conquest_of_Hispania

But there’s a problem with that assumption.

The ancient Greeks and the Romans had names for the Guadalquivir river.

But there is no Spanish name for the Guadalquivir river.

Greek geographers sometimes called it the river of Tartessus (because of the city that had the same name).

The Romans called it by the name Baetis (that was the basis for name of the province of Hispania Baetica).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guadalquivir

The next best thing would have been the ancient Tartessian name for the river.

According to Titus Livius (Livy), The History of Rome, Book 28, the native people of Tartessians or Turdetanians called two names to the river: Kertis/Certis and Rérkēs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guadalquivir

But this proved impossible because Tartessian is an extinct language.

The Tartessians were rich in metal.

In the 4th century BC the historian Ephorus describes “a very prosperous market called Tartessos, with much tin carried by river, as well as gold and copper from Celtic lands”.

The Tartessian language is an extinct pre-Roman language once spoken in southern Iberia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartessians

In fact, the Tartessian people and their “semi-mythical harbor city” [at the mouth of the Guadalquivir river mysteriously vanished [sometime] during Roman times.

Tartessos or Tartessus was a semi-mythical harbor city and the surrounding culture on the south coast of the Iberian Peninsula (in modern Andalusia, Spain), at the mouth of the Guadalquivir River.

It appears in sources from Greece and the Near East starting during the first millennium BC. Herodotus, for example, describes it as beyond the Pillars of Heracles (Strait of Gibraltar).

Roman authors tend to echo the earlier Greek sources but from around the end of the millennium there are indications that the name Tartessos had fallen out of use and the city may have been lost to flooding, though several authors attempt to identify it with cities of other names in the area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartessians

But the mysteries associated with the Guadalquivir river don’t stop there.

Just how did the Romans manage to sail the [roughly] 200 kilometres up the Guadalquivir to Cordoba which is [currently] at about 90 metres above sea level?

The Guadalquivir river is the only great navigable river in Spain.

Currently it is navigable from the Gulf of Cádiz to Seville, but in Roman times it was navigable to Córdoba.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guadalquivir

Why was “most” of the Roman bridge at Córdoba reconstructed in the 8th century and then restored and renovated “in particular” during the 10th century?

The Roman bridge of Córdoba is a bridge in the Historic centre of Córdoba, Andalusia, southern Spain, originally built in the early 1st century BC across the Guadalquivir river, though it has been reconstructed at various times since.

Most of the present structure dates from the Moorish reconstruction in the 8th century.

During its history, the bridge was restored and renovated several times (in particular in the 10th century), and now only the 14th and 15th arches (counting from the Puerta del Puente) are original.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_bridge_of_C%C3%B3rdoba

Why would the Carthaginians [whose merchants ships specialised in visiting maritime ports] suddenly decide to change their winning strategy by sailing up the Guadalquivir river?

Carthage was the Phoenician city-state of Carthage and during the 7th to 3rd centuries BC, included its sphere of influence, the Carthaginian Empire.

The empire extended over much of the coast of North Africa as well as encompassing substantial parts of coastal Iberia and the islands of the western Mediterranean Sea.

Carthage’s merchant ships, which surpassed in number even those of the cities of the Levant, visited every major port of the Mediterranean, as well as Britain and the Atlantic coast of Africa.

These ships were able to carry over 100 tons of goods.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Carthage

Hamilcar Barca or Barcas (c. 275 – 228 BC) was a Carthaginian general and statesman, leader of the Barcid family, and father of Hannibal, Hasdrubal and Mago.

Hamilcar probably landed at Gades in the summer of 237 BC.

Hamilcar’s immediate objective was to secure access to the gold and silver mines of Sierra Morena, either by direct and indirect control. Negotiations with the “Tartessian” tribes were successfully concluded, but Hamilcar faced hostility from the Turdetani or Turduli tribe, near the foothills of modern Seville and Córdoba.

Having secured control over the mines, and the river routes of Guadalquiver and Guadalete giving access to the mining area, Gades began to mint silver coins from 237 BC.

To unravel these mysteries it’s necessary to set your geologic clock to historic time.

It’s also necessary to remember the geography of the Mediterranean has changed over time.

These changes have occurred in historic timesnot geologic time.

In historic times the Corredor Bético connected the Atlantic to the Mediterranean.

See: https://es.slideshare.net/villasinta/tema-3-morfologa-pensnsula-ibrica

https://archive.org/stream/historyofancient02bunb#page/n264/mode/1up

Strabo (64 or 63 BC – c. 24 AD) was a Greek geographer, philosopher, and historian who lived in Asia Minor during the transitional period of the Roman Republic into the Roman Empire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strabo

Some of these location changes were tracked in Ptolemy’s Geographia gazetteer.

https://leifuss.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/ica-dachisaksen.pdf

See: https://malagabay.wordpress.com/2016/10/17/the-arabian-horizon-the-ptolemy-inheritance/

https://www.tiempo.com/ram/911/la-desecacin-del-mediterrneo/

This means that within historic times southern Spain was attached to Carthaginian Africa but separated from the Iberian peninsula by the Corredor Bético.

http://lifeinwilderness.com/2016/04/12/rambla-de-librilla-el-desfiladero-de-los-espectros/

Southern Spain only became sutured onto the Iberian peninsula in the last 2,000 years.

In structural geology, a suture is a joining together along a major fault zone, of separate terranes, tectonic units that have different plate tectonic, metamorphic and paleogeographic histories.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suture_(geology)

In other words:

1) The Carthaginians didn’t change their strategy by sailing up the Guadalquivir.

The maritime Carthaginians simply sailed along the Corredor Bético.

2) The Romans didn’t sail up the Guadalquivir to Cordoba.

The Romans simply sailed along the Corredor Bético to Cordoba.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282656195_Flecker_15_ESR

The evidence suggests the Corredor Bético finally closed at the Arabian Horizon.

See: https://malagabay.wordpress.com/2017/03/23/comet-halley-and-the-roman-time-line/
And: https://malagabay.wordpress.com/2017/03/19/close-encounters-of-the-cometary-kind/

This would explain:

3) The disappearance of the Tartessian and their “semi-mythical harbor city”.

4) The need for major repairs to the Cordoba bridge in the 8th and 10th centuries.

5) The naming of the Guadalquivir river in the newly formed “great valley”.

This implies:

6) The Punic War narratives are distinctly dubious.

The Punic Wars were a series of three wars fought between Rome and Carthage from 264 BC to 146 BC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punic_Wars

In 213 BC, Castulo was the site of Hasdrubal Barca’s crushing victory over the Roman army with a force of roughly 40,000 Carthaginian troops plus local Iberian mercenaries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castulo

7) The destruction of Carthage was likely a natural disaster i.e. The Arabian Horizon.

A second offensive… breached the walls, sacked the city, and systematically burned Carthage to the ground in 146 BC.

Carthage was systematically burned for 17 days; the city’s walls and buildings were utterly destroyed.

8) The Umayyad conquest of Hispania wasn’t an invasion or conquest.

As has happened so many times in history: The people didn’t migrate – the land did.

9) The Reconquista was an invasion and conquest.

My guess is that Cástulo was an Indo-Greek port [with Phoenician merchants] on the north shore of the Corredor Bético.

http://revistas.jasarqueologia.es/index.php/otarq/article/view/97

See: https://es.slideshare.net/villasinta/tema-3-morfologa-pensnsula-ibrica

Which, by my reckoning, doesn’t leave a lot of room in the history books for The Romans unless that’s just another way of saying: Indo-Greek.

https://www.juntadeandalucia.es/institutodeestadisticaycartografia/atlasterritorio/at/pdf/bloque6.pdf

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21 Responses to Crashing Carthage

  1. calgacus says:

    This is interesting since 2 days ago I decided to start reading Punica by Silius Italicus (https://archive.org/details/punicasi01siliuoft). Again we find out that Poggio Bracciolini discovered the poem in an ancient manuscript (which is now lost). Poggio is always a braccio away from an ancient manuscript.

  2. Thx1138 says:

    So was that a drawbridge at some point?

  3. TimE. says:

    Civilization always alters a landscape.

    When Father Marquette first touched shore at what was my former hometown of Racine, WI – their party killed a Buffalo for Dinner. The Prairies and Plains stretched for hundreds of miles. There were great marshes caused by Beavers damming the Root River. Where the Root River meet Lake Michigan the bottom was shallow and was not navigable. Over the years this was all to change – due to human engineering which was done to meet their needs. What exists today is not what existed in the past – due to human activity. The Buffalo which one touched the shores of Lake Michigan are gone – the Prairies have been replaced by Forests. The Root River is contained by a dam and fill. Downtown Racine has been built on fill.

    Look at what happened to Yellowstone when Wolves were re-introduced.

    When wolves were reintroduced to Yellowstone National Park in the United States after being absent nearly 70 years, the most remarkable “trophic cascade” occurred. What is a trophic cascade and how exactly do wolves change rivers? George Monbiot explains in this movie remix.

    “When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to everything else in the Universe.” – John Muir

    http://www.filmsforaction.org/watch/how-wolves-change-rivers/

  4. Tim,

    Spain or Iberia was affected by two geological events – Tertiary that formed the landscape, and presumably a Pleistocene that terminated the Roman period, or so one assumes. Trawling the archaeology of Seville and Cordoba seems useful approach. The Guadalquivir valley fill is Cenozoic though Castulo has to be more precisely located on a geological map (which I am slowly doing).

    The Tertiary event (TE) seems to have terminated American civilisations – Machu Picchu, Cuzco, Titicaca etc. These may have been Atlantis? Imagine South America attached to Europe at the edge of the continental margin, pre Tertiary times, and Atlantis was separated by a sea from Europe, but not so far away.

    The TE occurred and associated with earth expansion and degassing etc, Observers looking westwards to Atlantis/America would now not sea anything by ocean, and conclude Atlantis sank beneath the seas. No it moved westwards out of sight from earth expansions and crustal stretching.

    An immediate effect would be the draining of the pre TE seas into the newly formed oceanic abyss, that resulted in the sailors having a tradition of sailing off the edge of the world. Then a deluge that filled the newly formed oceans? So the deluge was post TE but pre Roman and formed the Cenozoic sedimentary basins.

    Africa crashing into Europe – the plate tectonics solution. Fence sitting. The problem here is that falsifying gravity also means removing the mechanism for isostasy that led to plate tectonics. The expanding earthers have also not explained how that theory overcomes gravitational accretion.

    Immediate task is to work out on which geological strata the major towns and cities are founded on in the Guadalquivir Valley.

    • TimE. says:

      The termination of the Pleistocene is easy for me to understand – around 12,000 years ago – which ended what I understand to be “The Golden Age”. The megalithic ruins seen around the World were built before then – and all peoples living around them afterwards were a legacy – not the builders.

      When you refer to “The Tertiary event” – what period of time do you subscribe to? And I must admit – that I am not so “formally educated” – but then again – I doubt the stories told by “settled science” and am an Interventionist – as The Theory of Evolution is still just a theory and what we see in the fossil record is TRANSFORMATIONS – not Transitions. (it is an inconvenient truth that primates have 24 pairs of chromosomes – humans have 23)

      In 2015 I had the opportunity to visit The Museum of the Rockies – and see the magnificent display of fossils collected by Jack Horner. Which leads to this Shocker:

      “After 68 million years in the ground, a Tyrannosaurus rex found in Montana was dug up, its leg bone was broken in pieces, and fragments were dissolved in acid in Schweitzer’s laboratory at North Carolina State University in Raleigh. “Cool beans,” she says, looking at the image on the screen.

      It was big news indeed last year when Schweitzer announced she had discovered blood vessels and structures that looked like whole cells inside that T. rex bone—the first observation of its kind. The finding amazed colleagues, who had never imagined that even a trace of still-soft dinosaur tissue could survive. After all, as any textbook will tell you, when an animal dies, soft tissues such as blood vessels, muscle and skin decay and disappear over time, while hard tissues like bone may gradually acquire minerals from the environment and become fossils. Schweitzer, one of the first scientists to use the tools of modern cell biology to study dinosaurs, has upended the conventional wisdom by showing that some rock-hard fossils tens of millions of years old may have remnants of soft tissues hidden away in their interiors. “The reason it hasn’t been discovered before is no right-thinking paleontologist would do what Mary did with her specimens. We don’t go to all this effort to dig this stuff out of the ground to then destroy it in acid,” says dinosaur paleontologist Thomas Holtz Jr., of the University of Maryland. “It’s great science.” The observations could shed new light on how dinosaurs evolved and how their muscles and blood vessels worked. And the new findings might help settle a long-running debate about whether dinosaurs were warmblooded, coldblooded—or both.”

      Read more: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/dinosaur-shocker-115306469/#AK6xkHlIuG3YooI4.99

      As for “gravitational accretion” (a term which I had to look up – I profess my ignorance)

      Spin, or rotation, would cancel out any loses of energy and actually create excess energy – see: http://brucedepalma.com/

      I do not believe black holes exist – but the Sun may have a brown dwarf following it – my thoughts always subject to more information.

      I believe that Dr. Paul LaViolette is correct in his theory that Pulsars are beacons to guide those who have access to Interstellar Travel:

      Decoding the Message of the Pulsars presents evidence for the existence of interstellar radio beacons of extraterrestrial intelligence (ETI) origin that are beaming signals toward the solar system.

      http://etheric.com/decoding-message-of-the-pulsars/

      “Immediate task is to work out on which geological strata the major towns and cities are founded on in the Guadalquivir Valley”.

      Fascinating – indeed. But as always – People re-shape an area to meet their needs, and often change the flora and fauna.

      • Thx1138 says:

        the somatid is able to live autonomously, either in a `living body,’ or `glass-enclosed.’ This has something to do with the fact that, while the virus is a particle of DNA, a piece of it, the somatid is, as we’ve already said, a ‘precursor’ of DNA, something that leads to its creation.”

        The best experimental proof backing up this astounding disclosure, Françoise went on, begins with a cube of fresh meat no different from those impaled on shish kebab skewers. After being injected with somatids taken from an in vitro culture, the meat cube is placed in a sealed vessel in which a vacuum is created. With the cube now protected from any contamination from the ambient atmosphere, and anything that atmosphere might contain that could act to putrefy the meat, the vessel is subsequently exposed during the day to natural light by setting it, for instance, next to a window.

        Harboring the living, indestructible somatids as it does, the meat cube in the vessel will, thenceforth, not rot, as it surely would have rotted had it not received the injection. Retaining its healthy-looking color, it not only remains as fresh as when inserted into the vessel, but progressively increases in size, that is, it continues to grow, just as if it were part of a living organism.

    • TimE. says:

      “Immediate task is to work out on which geological strata the major towns and cities are founded on in the Guadalquivir Valley”.

      Just a thought – Human Beings with 23 pairs of chromosomes are always looking to the PAST – instead of to the future…. WHY is that ? I do not mean to be rude – BUT – What exactly are you searching for – if the Future is the STARS?

      I am no different.

    • malagabay says:

      Louis,

      I think you’ve captured the underlying storyline.

      An immediate effect would be the draining of the pre TE seas into the newly formed oceanic abyss, that resulted in the sailors having a tradition of sailing off the edge of the world.
      Then a deluge that filled the newly formed oceans?

      The narrative point I would add is the development of salt pans after the draining event.
      Some dried out completely… others eventually refilled with water.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messinian_salinity_crisis

      One thing I’ve learnt from that mainstream is that locking onto grandiose theories is a disaster area. I’m happy to run with new ideas and competing concepts whilst I review the evidence.

      • Tim,
        The Messinian event is dated ~ Miocene which is the same stratigraphic level the present-day Garzweiler brown coal open cut mine near Cologne is working. Hagendoorn (1992)published a stone aqueduct at the base of one open-cut pit that I initially interpreted as Roman. Roman remains buried under Miocene strata?????

        This interpretation is wrong. It is more likely pre-Roman and probably contemporaneous with the remaining stoneworks in Peru. This stone-masonry also seems similar to that near the Pyramid of Cheops, and South America. There are two unconformities in the Rhine Valley stratigraphy that may correlate with the Roman period.

        The Peruvian Machu-Pichu sitting on top of a tall mountainous peak is explained as Pre-Aztecs building some sort of fortress etc but who in their right mind builds such a thing at that elevation. And where is the water supply? More likely this building was at sea level and the Tertiary event uplifted the crust, with some remnants left behind having survived the catastrophe. Such an event might have parts of the buildings down the bottom of the ravines and valleys, misinterpreted by the archaeologists as construction material being transported to the fortress when in reality its flotsam derived from the partial collapse of the uplifted fortress existing today.

        So Iberia might have pre-Roman buildings and later Roman ones, but the two have been conflated as Roman. The Alverez crater near Mexico now seems an interesting structure.

        Slowly the jigsaw is starting to come together but it remains a very long road.

      • malagabay says:

        “but it remains a very long road”

        Louis: That’s the truth…

      • Suture lines? No, fault, boundary of a graben structure maybe.

        I came across a seismic interpretation of the Moho and slightly south of Gibraltar is a rounded appendage of deeper crust to the MOHO (40km deep) that would have stopped any crustal movement to the north. Imagine a flat bottomed boat sliding over the water, and now add a keel to it, like an ice-cream cone, descending downwards. Lateral movement will be seriously impeded. Unless this MOHO anomaly was produced by some external driver. It’s a bit difficult having lateral compression of crust that is at depth welded to the upper mantle by a vertical cone-shaped structure.

        So how to explain the extreme folding and over folding of the strata NE and SW of Malaga? Sedimentary strata derived from the now drained sea to the SE? So what force could cause plastic sediments to fold and overfold as if Carthage crashed into Iberia?

        Pass.

      • malagabay says:

        Louis, you’re a superstar! Thank you – Tim

        “I came across a seismic interpretation of the Moho and slightly south of Gibraltar is a rounded appendage of deeper crust to the MOHO (40km deep) that would have stopped any crustal movement to the north.”

        Could it have shifted East? And what about the bulging Algeria?

        If I didn’t know better I’d guess there was as SW to NE impact in the Atlantic.

        “So how to explain the extreme folding and over folding of the strata NE and SW of Malaga?”

        I look at it every day and wonder.
        I woke up [way too] early this morning wondering about it.

        My guess:

        1) SW to NE impact in the Atlantic.
        2) Algeria bulging out towards the NE and Gibraltar nudged Eastwards.
        3) Volcanism triggered off the West coast of Africa e.g. Canaries Islands
        4) Drying out and sanding of the Sahara
        5) Doming in the Western Mediterranean caused by the release of gas / oil / water.
        6) Staggered release of gas and water with an eventual dome collapse.

        A shallower Mediterranean sea [caused by doming] would accelerate heating and evaporation.

        Gypsum deposits in the Karst in Sorbas Gypsum about 2 m thick.
        Each meter of seawater can deposit about one millimeter of gypsum on evaporation.
        The deposits are formed directly on the seabed prior to the salt crisis and covered by clays.

        https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisis_salina_del_Messiniense

        Gypsum of the Yesares member of the Sorbas basin, formed in association with the Messinian salinity crisis. The gypsum can be clearly seen to have formed at the sediment surface, forming cones separated by laminated sediments. The cliff’s height is about 100m, requiring the evaporation of 100km of seawater (through several desiccation-refilling cycles) to be produced.

      • A big problem interpreting sediments is that they are deposited via water or wind, and at present doing so slowly, is an understatement. Given the present salinity of the oceans, depositing gypsum would take a long time, or a lot of ocean! Which leads to the source of the gypsum.

        Impacts. Mainstream interprets all impacts as Newtonian collisions. The only structures I would attribute to meteorites are the Carolina Bays in the US. The rest are discharge craters.

        Now Konstantin Khazanovitch-Wulff has published (in NCGT News) a couple of proposals for the formation of kimberlites as the result of external bodies sweeping past the Earth and inducing large telluric currents as well as disrupting the atmosphere. Introducing electromagnetics, water saturated unconsolidated sediments, telluric currents of immense voltages and amperages, and crustal forces can be inferred from the resulting Lorentz forces as the meteorite/comet passes over.

        Exposed granitic rocks or crystalline basement can be interpreted as crust stripped off its weathered mantle or regolith, of unknown thickness, (though Australia’s craton would be a good example of the older landsurfaces).

        Rather than a mechanical impact, which in the Newtonian world would simply bounce off, we instead have an EM shock wave travelling in the same direction causing massive induced telluric currents and crustal deformation.

        Comets and meteors are also not lone wolves, and accompanied by swarms of lesser bodies that also will cause less severe EM effects, that collectively I would described as magnetohydrodynamism, potentially capable of eroding and depositing large volumes of weathered rock and igniting volcanoes and other ‘igneous’ effects to produce further exotic emissions of magmatic plasma including carbonities or plasma-carbonitites.

        Cratons stripped bare of regolith that is deposited elsewhere?

        I don’t mind having sediments being moved bodily over crystalline basement, but the weird thing is that all the fossil bearing sediments are on the exposed land surfaces or continents, none being deposited in the oceans, though one needs to be careful in not ignoring submerged continents. But the Jurassic seds with dinosaurs are all on landfall, and not in the oceans at present. So the formation of the oceans has to be the last major event before the present.

        What I do have problems with is fossil laden sediments travelling over oceans – the tsunami models.

        A few steps along the long road.

  5. TimE. says:

    Out of order – again – I apologize.

    From Louis Hissink:

    “The Peruvian Machu-Pichu sitting on top of a tall mountainous peak is explained as Pre-Aztecs building some sort of fortress etc but who in their right mind builds such a thing at that elevation. And where is the water supply”?

    You have made a very extraordinary statement in the above – “Who in their right mind”…. and then presented a conclusion which meets your understanding in human terms.

    “More likely this building was at sea level and the Tertiary event uplifted the crust, with some remnants left behind having survived the catastrophe”.

    Perhaps – but then I would say that the Builders weren’t modern Humans – although I believe that they may have created modern Humans.

    We are striving to be a type 1 Civilization attempting to comprehend the remnants of a type 3 Civilization which fought a terrible Cosmic War.

    http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2007/11/harnessing-gala.html

    Fascinating – as always – I will leave you with this – and go back to listening and lurking… what you discover will add to truth and knowledge and perhaps – new conclusions.

    “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic”.

    Arthur C. Clarke

  6. malaga bay; Louis Hissink: you have meandered onto my ‘stomping ground’, the Med, with very interesting bits. I’d like to have more on that if its anywhere to be found.

    Quote: “but it remains a very long road”; not necessarily. The old calendars (again, but its the only source/evidence) are revealing. They were necessarily aligned to equinox sunrise (or sunset). From archaic type to intermediate there is a land rotation of about ~47deg. To latest another ~42deg. So the latest have perfect alignment, the older to SE and the older still to South (except one set on sunset that now points N; it never sees the sun -or moon-, and the pole star does not move). Those two events have dates 5200BP and 7200BP.

    One other exception. An archaic that is rotated an additional 30deg. It is at the edge of a great fault, a piece of land that collapsed down but was left still above the water. Land beyond is deep down today. That calendar appears to have been there before the 5200BP cataclysm. Link: https://www.facebook.com/melitamegalithic/photos/a.770471453127662.1073741868.430211163820361/770471536460987/?type=3&theater

    Ugly events happened in the Med in 5200. Those could not have been that localised. If LH could supply more info on his “Suture lines? No, fault, boundary of a graben structure maybe.” I would be very obliged.

    The calendars are some 200kM from the Malta Escarpment, which seems where Africa’s push into Europe seems to have given way. Now if the escarpment face (dept 200m to 3000m near vertical) where to move an inch, What would that wavelet sweep.

    • Changes in astronomical azimuth could be the result of a local rotation of the crust or a re-orientation of the Earth along its axial and orbital positions.

      Suiture line or as I interpret it at present, a ;possible graben, a long topographic depression bounded by “normal” faults, (in the technical sense), results from an extensional stress environment. This is a problem for the carthage crashing model.

      As Tim has flagged his rejection of Newton’s gravity theory, and as this theory informs isostasy and hence plate tectonics, one cannot then use those models to explain geological structure.

      As to the absolute dating of megalithic monuments, ice cores and what not, to produce “correlations”, that’s a field full of theological, and hence political, assumptions, given that religion was the precursor of population management theory and procedure.

      • malagabay says:

        For clarity:

        I employ the term “Suture” to describe what appears to be the “welding” together of separate bodies of rock that have collided.

        I have to faith in mainstream geological theories such as “plate tectonics” and “isostasy”.
        And
        I have no need for these mainstream geological theories.

        At this stage of the game it’s all about collecting observational information and trying to understand and describe “what has happen”.

        Grandiose geological theorising – like “plate tectonics” – isn’t on my agenda… or even on my horizon.

        I have insufficient information… and so does everyone else.

      • The last paragraph needs commenting on; it, sort of, ‘throws the baby out with the bathwater’.
        Evidence shows that cult always came behind science, the latter being the daughter of necessity. It is evident in the genetic development of the cereals, and, -related-, in astronomy to develop an accurate season calendar. Those two were developed long before cult appeared, by several Kyears –plenty of evidence–. Cult developed when the science was lost, but the remaining “bluffers” figured they could copy monkey-wise the ‘innovators’. It was done in 2500bce, and you can find it today in many instances in industry.

        On the other hand dating with proxies, whether ice-cores, tree-rings and a raft of other sources of data, these do require careful interpretation, but are all immune from religion/politics. They may be sought and abused by the latter for their aims (Ha; to make crystal balls), and thus require a level of scrutiny not to be deceived -eg piltdown (and an important one here: https://malagabay.wordpress.com/2015/04/14/celestial-crystal-balls-and-the-temple-of-amen-ra/ ) . In reverse it seems why cult is much resorted to to explain megalithic sites. It is a safe tale.

        Re “population management theory and procedure”, that is a fundamental part of the agrarian society. It is indispensable. Whereas Cult in practice has been more of a demanding parasite than a virtuous leader.

  7. Above link read 5200bce not BP

  8. Pingback: The Miocene Mysteries | MalagaBay

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